Comments for Euge's thoughts on ministry

Comment on A Time To Chart New Maps In Our City by Justin Moffatt

Justin Moffatt — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:32:40 +0000

Hear Hear!

Comment on A Time To Chart New Maps In Our City by eugenehor

eugenehor — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:33:09 +0000

thanks for that Kenneth - sorry I didn’t get back earlier - have been o’seas. while the chinese ministry might share the same general mission direction, the major issue is how this is achieved and models of doing church in a bi-cultural church. I don’t think english ministries in the chinese church has ever had the kind of autonomy you raise (from my observation in the US, Canada and Australia). while I might set the direction and vision of the English ministry which comes out in the pulpit, and my ongoing training and development of leaders within our ministry - achieving it is a lot harder when decisions concerning money, staffing, when and where to plant is with the chinese ministry leadership. have a look at my previous article on the chinese diaspora and you’ll see what I mean. anyway, drop me an email and we can dialogue - am on voip and can call you in the US untimed for 8c

Comment on A Time To Chart New Maps In Our City by kungfuliu

kungfuliu — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:40:25 +0000

hi eugene. thanks for your thoughts. does the chinese ministry have this same kind of vision? or are you autonomous enough to set your own direction and vision?

Comment on The Second Generation Leadership Diaspora by kevin

kevin — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:44:31 +0000

Euge,
I think that you have brought up some very good points about why English pastors leave a Chinese church. A lot of English pastors take these jobs because they have an affinity for the ministry, church or culture. Most leave when they realize that there is a conflict between their responsibility to the ministry and their responsibility to the church, although, most will not be able to put it in those terms.
Even if one adopts a missional approach, at some point, he will want to establish a church for the English speaking. But as a secondary congregation, it is not possible because the English speaking exist to augment the Chinese speaking. Simply put, it is their purpose. And that is where the conflict arises. Even missionaries in far away lands want their group to start a church and develop church leaders and more effective ways to reach those around them. As a member of a secondary congregation (English speaking) in a Chinese speaking church, I cannot see how it is possible.
Maybe I’m too pessimistic. Surely there is more to the discussion.
I appreciate reading your thoughts on the matter.

Comment on The Second Generation Leadership Diaspora by Phil Nicholson

Phil Nicholson — Fri, 21 Dec 2007 02:02:20 +0000

Hi Eug,

Good comments. I think you are right regarding the OBC churches. Mostly they do not think cross culturally and so cannot see that English ministries are legitimate even if done in a very different way. We face exactly the same problem trying to get the gospel to spread from the educated Chinese to the working class. It needs a different paradigm of ministry that few pastors can accept. It is unfair to put all the blame or responsibility on the ABC pastors.

Now you just need to wait another 20 years to have the seniority to be able to challenge this!

I think what is abnormal about those of you who have stayed is the willingness to really act as missionaries (i.e. working with a cross cultural mindset) which is somehow harder when you are living in your own home country. It demands a constant evaluation of what ministry values you are willing to compromise for the sake of harmony with the leadership and what values need to be affirmed and fought for.

I like your conclusion - we have definitely seen how “persecution” has led to a scattering and a spread of the gospel from our home church! I often think Acts 8 when I reflect on what God has done there.

Comment on The Second Generation Leadership Diaspora by 白惡魔牧師

白惡魔牧師 — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:11:35 +0000

Thanks for your blog - it makes me sad to read that the same human foolishness is happening in Australia.
I have served the Canadian Chinese church since completing seminary in Vancouver in 1995. I have read the reports from the American Chinese church about the loss of their second generation and now we are experiencing it here in Canada.
I have lived through the first burgeoning waves of destruction of the CBC congregations - I have also seen the diaspora of solid EM pastors and leaders. For the last few years I have been researching a doctoral thesis on the Silent Exodus — why won’t the OBC leaders see the problem? why do they refuse to admit that their is a problem? The CBC are walking away from the faith as well as the church.
First American Chinese churches, followed by Canadian Chinese churches - is Australia next? We have allowed culture to triumph over faith and have slowly choked the Body of Christ with it.

Comment on The Second Generation Leadership Diaspora by Steven Tran

Steven Tran — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:45:45 +0000

Hey Euge - would I have your permission to use some of this content for some chairing sessions at the upcoming BLT2008?

Comment on The Second Generation Leadership Diaspora by David Park

David Park — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:20:31 +0000

Great, great post. I totally need to second the sentiment for Korean American pastors, although there is a different dynamic in that the labor pool for KA pastors seems larger for now. What I think people don’t account for is the cost of disenchantment (antithesis to bonhoeffer’s famous book, maybe?). The rate of growth and depth of discipleship at some point could be quite problematic unless the range of our churches expands. this is where your statement about missional churches could be very applicable to meet the exodus where they land. again, great thoughts and very glad to have found your blog.

Comment on The Second Generation Leadership Diaspora by L2 Foundation Blog

L2 Foundation Blog — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:44:34 +0000

where can second generation leaders go

Eugene Hor is a member of the CCCOWE English Task Force, and has served as an English pastor for the last 9 years at Burwood Chinese Presbyterian Church in Sydney, Australia, an intergenerational Chinese Church.
Eugene recently stopped by here and lef…

Comment on I came, I saw, I conquered by ted ng

ted ng — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:06:03 +0000

One of my great concerns is the reality of stagnation in the Christian life you have mentioned. I think of the great churches of the first century such as Jerusalem, Antioch and Ephesus and wonder how they fared now they are gone. Did Ephesus ever recover it’s first love? Once martyred in the coliseum in Rome, Christianity took over the very empire that persecuted it only to see the Holy Roman Empire it became fall into corruption over time. Great reforming movements such as the Dominicans, Franciscans and Jesuits began with great zeal but also at times became instruments of oppression. The protestant reformation birthed a host of vibrant communities but over time, many have become anything but reforming. Semper Reformanda, indeed.

My own experience within the local church has allowed me to observe how the humble become great and influential. With the radical becoming established, a form of wealth, power and recognition enters the picture. These temptations are very hard to resist as they lay siege to the human soul. There is little wonder as to why two of the monastic vows are poverty and obedience. When we measure the success or failure of a church or a person by a wrong-headed standard, the values shift. Darrell Johnson once shared with us, “Some churches are more interested in preserving themselves than in serving the Kingdom of God.”

The story of King David is relevant. The humble shepherd boy rises to prominence and slays the proud giant Goliath, eventually becoming the great king of Israel. It is at the pinnacle of his worldly success that he becomes Goliath himself and crushes and oppresses others with an act of adultery and murder.

My question is: how do we avoid such a fate? If my humble doings lead me to a place where I become great in my own eyes, I am undone. Indeed, how do we maintain that passion for Jesus you speak of, that missional, dynamic Spirit-filled life? Perhaps that is the wonderful point to the Jesus prayer taught in the Orthodox parable, “The Way of the Pilgrim.” My passion , my sin, my desperation for Jesus grows when I meditate upon the words of that publican’s prayer, “Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.” The Christian and the Church must pursue a cruciform pilgrimage or become Goliath.